Hello.
I am first to answer why Polemarchus gave in to Socrates when his father (Cephalus) would not? (I don’t think that sentence is worded very well). So here is my response:
First, Cephalus walked away when they had just started to debate, so we have no idea how the argument would have turned out if he stayed to battle it out with Socrates.
Second, Socrates might not have won against Cephalus. I think (I’m really not sure, though) that Cephalus is older than Socrates, which might mean he would have been able to deflect Socrates’ argument better than his son did. Polemarchus was something of a pushover, like Glaucon. He didn’t really put up a fight, but mainly agreed with Socrates in every point that he made, until after Socrates had revealed his purpose. There were some points in the text where I would have fought against the argument, and Polemarchus merely agreed.
Last, I think that Socrates’ argument was REALLY good. There were only a few points at which I would have found some fault with his logic. I don’t think that Polemarchus had much choice but to give up.
And here I get to make my own question! Ok, mine is this: “Do you think that a just man can be compared to a doctor or a navigator or a cook?”
I choose this in part because this is one of the points that I would have argued with Socrates over because I don’t think that you can make that comparison.
I think that a just man cannot be compared with a navigator, a cook or a doctor, and my reason is simple: “a just man” is not a profession as navigator, cook and doctor are. ALL of these men should be just. I think that this is main fault of Socrates’ logic. He talks of “just man” as though it were a job title, which I think it isn’t.
After this, he goes on to talk about how a just man is “useless when you are using things, and useful when you are not (pg 13, section 333, just above part e).” But I think that all of the professions that Socrates lists, musician, a farmer, a shoemaker, should be just men as well. This means that Socrates cannot be right in this statement. Justice is MOST useful when you are using something, or doing something. For example, wouldn’t you want your doctor or your shoemaker to be just and fair?
He also says that if you were to keep something, like a pruning knife, you should call on the just man, but if you wanted to use it, you should look to the vinedresser. This is true, the man who keeps your pruning knife should be just, but so should the vinedresser.
Goodbye.
2 comments:
As always, first I shall post a little thought on the blog entry at hand, and then respond to the comment you left on my blog.
First, blog commenting:
Y'know, I'm starting to think that Polemarchus and the others aren't ACTUALLY paying attention to Socrates. Their minds are either on something else, so they're just sitting there nodding and saying "Mhmm. I see.", or they just don't want to disagree with him because they're friends.
Mmmkay. Now responding time:
"Unfortunately, there is that other 20%. Children (and I know this from personal experience, I have a little brother) are very frivolous, sometimes selfish, and often just very unaware that the choices that they make have an impact on people other than themselves. They don’t realize that they can hurt someone by something that they say, it doesn’t even occur to them. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule."
I have two little brothers, and I know exactly what you mean. However, I usually watch the older of my two little bros from a distance whenever I'm at the middle school in the mornings, waiting for the high school to open. Judging from how he acts, as well as some of the stories I've heard on the VMK forums, I think how kids work is that they're more lax with their manners around family, and then when in the company of friends, they're a bit more polite (Although they DO tend to cuss more if the entire group is over 12 or so), and then in the company of complete strangers, they are the politest.
"I also have to agree with what you said about adults. Most of them are ALSO very selfish. They get very caught up with things like, as you said, getting from point a to point b. Of course, children don’t have this problem. As a whole, children look more at the world in a day, that most adults do in most of their adult life. Children will look out the window of a car and point at a kite in a tree, or flowers in someone’s garden, or a man sitting at a bus stop. Just little things that most would never notice, and that IS one of the things that makes children so wonderful."
Y'know, it occurs to me. This is EXACTLY what Clarisse said in Fahrenheit 451, no? I had a chance to watch the movie some weeks ago, but the channel it was on was an On Demand thing or something >.< Blasted cable providers and their monopolies.
But I digress. I do agree with most of that statement, except for the idea of them being in a car when they notice the kite in the tree. From my experience, most children fall asleep within five minutes of being buckled in ;)
"However, the world cannot be run on observations alone. As you said, children don’t worry about profit or statistics; some wouldn’t know what those words mean. Decisions that are made in this country that involve things like passing a bill for stem cell research, or abortion, or even fishing rights in Michigan. A child would never have enough experience, enough education, to make a decision about something like that."
I betcha that if we just let kids run the government from the beginning, most of these issues wouldn't even arise. Instead, every day chocolate would rain from yonder heavens, and the streets would be paved in jawbreakers.
What I like so much about kids is how grateful they are for everything, especially money. With adults it's "Damn, where am I going to get a thousand dollars for (insert item here)." With kids it's "Yay! A dime! I finally have enough money for a gumball!" If children were to rule they economy (Not only in America, but the whole world,) money probably wouldn't be an issue anymore. If you've ever been to the marketplace on the VMK forums, nothing has a defined value. It's based on people's wants and needs (which are usually easy to satisfy). For example, a Dancing Inferno magic pin, the rarest item in the game, sometimes sells for as high as a complete set of quest items (The next tier down in rarity), or something as mundane as 500+ brown crates (Most common item in the game). In retrospect, it sort of reminds me of how the economy works in the Dinotopia books (Great series, by the way ;))
"As a rule, I’m not fond of the people who run the world today. If they did their jobs a little bit better, I think that there would be far fewer problems. Darfur, for example. The UN should be doing something about it, it’s been classified as genocide for nearly two and a half years, and yet they still send no troops in to save people. Why don’t they do anything?"
I'm not all to good with politics, so I wouldn't know, but usually when there is a crisis that goes ignored, it's because of a lack of resources. Once again, something that wouldn't have happened if we just let the young'uns rule from the start.
"But despite this, I don’t think that we could just replace all governments with children. We need people who have enough knowledge to make good decisions and be able to look into the future, so that they can predict any problems that may arise. Children live too much in the present."
Maybe that's what's so good about them. They're not thinking "Oh, lets build hundreds of thousands of Weapons of Mass Destruction in case (Insert country here) decides to attack." Instead, they focus on the problems at hand, and solve those.
"And last, yes, I do think that Plato was a little egotistical. Socrates too. He was, after all, the one that said there was no one to rule but philosophers. After reading some of his ideas on justice, though, I might be persuaded to that opinion. I especially like the conclusion that he draws at the end of part two. That a good man will hurt no one, therefore a just man will hurt no one, and only his opposite, an unjust man, will cause harm. Pretty good if you ask me."
Yepyep. That WAS pretty good. I think the only reason they sound egotistical, though, is just the nature of how they communicate their ideas. They take the ideas of whoever they are talking to, and sort of reshape it until it's more correct.
Mundus Mea Ostrea Est! (Boy, what a thing to say right after I claim philosophers AREN'T egotistical!)
-Justin
Good question Kit, I plan to address it in class because it touches on a wider theme. If our class discussion goes in another direction and I don't get to this, please remind me to.
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